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W.G. Mc Kenny Crew
by Sunderlin Family on Fri Jun 11, 2010 9:11 pm
- 613_Bomb_Squadron.JPG (142.86 KiB) Viewed 164 times
Name Corrections:
Crew Members
Pilot 2nd Lt William G. McKenny
Copilot 2nd Lt R. Burdick
Navigator 2nd Lt H.R. Levin
Togglier Sgt John.W. Holland
Radio Operator Sgt John.W. O'Brien
Engr/Top Turret Sgt Robert A. Sunderlin
Ball Turret Gunner Sgt Ira D. Franzblau
Tail Gunner Sgt Richard L.Johannes
Waist Gunner Sgt Arnold A. Siegel
The BIG question is...Does any one know which B-17 that is in the image?
Odds are its the only surviving photo of 4-8767 but how can we be sure?
Can it be tracked by the 7582 on the nose???
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Re: W.G. Mc Kenny Crew
by donaldbyers on Sat Jun 12, 2010 2:05 am
Can you send me a copy of this picture to my email address historian@401bg.org I also don't know who puts the numbers on the front of the aircraft. The serial number is the most promanent way to track aircraft. Any how I want to add this picture to the Crew Data page of the website since their is no crew picture for this crew.
Tks
Don Byers
Tks
Don Byers
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Re: W.G. Mc Kenny Crew
by Sunderlin Family on Sat Jun 12, 2010 7:02 pm
donaldbyers wrote:Can you send me a copy of this picture to my email address historian@401bg.org I also don't know who puts the numbers on the front of the aircraft. The serial number is the most promanent way to track aircraft. Any how I want to add this picture to the Crew Data page of the website since their is no crew picture for this crew.
Tks
Don Byers
I thought I had already sent you that image last night. You can right click on the above image and select "save as" and it will save to your computer if you like, or I can resend it if you can't find it in your email in box.
I understand that the serial number is the best way to track an aircraft. However, my intention was to identify which aircraft is in the image and put a serial number to it. I am tring to determine which one of those dozen or so aircrafts they flew is the one in the image. The only way I can think of is the numbers on the nose, unless of course there is some identifying feature that I am unaware of in that image. I leave that up to you experts.
Process of elimination would help I think because it doesn't seam to have any nose art except for that "7582" Although it may have something identifiable jutting down between the 5 an the 8 I'm not sure. Is there a list of nose art images we can use as a reference?
Edit:
I resent that photo to your email address.
Last edited by Sunderlin Family on Sat Jun 12, 2010 7:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: W.G. Mc Kenny Crew
by Paul Bellamy on Sat Jun 12, 2010 7:18 pm
The B-17G in the background is carrying a Stateside training number on the nose.
If it is a shortened version of the aircraft serial number then it could be B-17G-20-VE 42-97582.
The sign in front of the crew appears to read: 2xx CCTS (H) 2AAF.
The 2nd Air Force was responsible for combat crew training in the USA.
There were a number of Combat Crew Training Schools (CCTS) operated by numbered Base Units.
Unfortunately I can't read the number clearly, so here's the Heavy Bomber CCTSs in the 200-range and their locations:
215th: Pueblo Army Air Field, Colorado.
222nd: Ardmore Army Air Field, Oklahoma.
224th: Sioux City Army Air Base, Iowa.
225th: Rapid City Army Air Base, S. Dakota.
236th: Pyote Army Air Field, Texas.
I'll see if anything else can be found.
All the best,
paul
If it is a shortened version of the aircraft serial number then it could be B-17G-20-VE 42-97582.
The sign in front of the crew appears to read: 2xx CCTS (H) 2AAF.
The 2nd Air Force was responsible for combat crew training in the USA.
There were a number of Combat Crew Training Schools (CCTS) operated by numbered Base Units.
Unfortunately I can't read the number clearly, so here's the Heavy Bomber CCTSs in the 200-range and their locations:
215th: Pueblo Army Air Field, Colorado.
222nd: Ardmore Army Air Field, Oklahoma.
224th: Sioux City Army Air Base, Iowa.
225th: Rapid City Army Air Base, S. Dakota.
236th: Pyote Army Air Field, Texas.
I'll see if anything else can be found.
All the best,
paul
Paul Bellamy
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Re: W.G. Mc Kenny Crew
by win-win on Sat Jun 12, 2010 7:32 pm
Hi:
What a great photo (and your ability to indluce such a large one in your post...I'm way-jealous...)
Here's what I see:
- - The 'sign' in-front of the Crew has 'CCTS' (2nd word-group) - and that means 'Combat Crew Training School'; and
- - I've seen a lot of photos of training A/C 'wearing' block numbers like this (pictured B-17),
So I think this photo was probably taken during this Crew's state-side B-17 Crew training together (before going overseas).
Do you know when/where this Crew trained (state-side)?
I also noticed the Crew has 9-men (pictured). Presuming the whole Crew is pictured, knowing when and where they trained would help more:
- - The 401st started flying 9-man Crews (instead of 10-man Crews) about August 1944 +/-), but
- - I know during my Uncle's (replacement) B-17 Crew training (to June, 1944, at CCTS Rapid City, S.D.), Crews were still 10-men.
Great photo, and hope this is heelpful.
Win Bryson
What a great photo (and your ability to indluce such a large one in your post...I'm way-jealous...)
Here's what I see:
- - The 'sign' in-front of the Crew has 'CCTS' (2nd word-group) - and that means 'Combat Crew Training School'; and
- - I've seen a lot of photos of training A/C 'wearing' block numbers like this (pictured B-17),
So I think this photo was probably taken during this Crew's state-side B-17 Crew training together (before going overseas).
Do you know when/where this Crew trained (state-side)?
I also noticed the Crew has 9-men (pictured). Presuming the whole Crew is pictured, knowing when and where they trained would help more:
- - The 401st started flying 9-man Crews (instead of 10-man Crews) about August 1944 +/-), but
- - I know during my Uncle's (replacement) B-17 Crew training (to June, 1944, at CCTS Rapid City, S.D.), Crews were still 10-men.
Great photo, and hope this is heelpful.
Win Bryson
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Re: W.G. Mc Kenny Crew
by Sunderlin Family on Sat Jun 12, 2010 8:10 pm
I have some documentation of this crew doing training Just before August 1945.
By the way I have the serial numbers of every crew member.
I don't know however If I should post those or not.
In Robert Sunderlins "Separation Qualification Record"
2 months as Pvt AAF Basic Training (521)
23 months S/Sgt AP Armorer-Gunner (612)
Lincoln Army Airfield
Lincoln 1, Nebraska
However there may be a discrepancy as to if he was in the 612 or 613 it seams.
It also says 27 combat missions yet I only see documentation of 25 on this site.
I am beginning to believe this crew might have been 612 and not 613 squadron.
I found Robert Sunderlin's "Flexible Gunnery School" Diploma and it says that it was received July 29 1944 in "Las Vegas Army Air Field, Las Vegas Nevada"
Also Found "Air Force Technical School" "Airplane Armorers" Diploma Dated May 21st 1944
Also "Honorable Discharge" papers Dated Jan 20th 1945 and on that it says 612th also.
Air Medal with 3 bz OLC
Victory Medal
1 O/.S Bar
American Theater Ribbon
EAME Ribbon with 3 Bz Battle Stars
Good Conduct Medal
He was 18 years and 6months old at date of entry.
Note: The 9 man crew switch makes sense to me because there s one missing man "Mack Fisher"in The training documentation so he must have been reassigned.
I am really just getting started in all of this. Some where there is a picture of Deenthorp Airbase's entryway arch and sighn and the tower too I just have to dig it up.
By the way I have the serial numbers of every crew member.
I don't know however If I should post those or not.
In Robert Sunderlins "Separation Qualification Record"
2 months as Pvt AAF Basic Training (521)
23 months S/Sgt AP Armorer-Gunner (612)
Lincoln Army Airfield
Lincoln 1, Nebraska
However there may be a discrepancy as to if he was in the 612 or 613 it seams.
It also says 27 combat missions yet I only see documentation of 25 on this site.
I am beginning to believe this crew might have been 612 and not 613 squadron.
I found Robert Sunderlin's "Flexible Gunnery School" Diploma and it says that it was received July 29 1944 in "Las Vegas Army Air Field, Las Vegas Nevada"
Also Found "Air Force Technical School" "Airplane Armorers" Diploma Dated May 21st 1944
Also "Honorable Discharge" papers Dated Jan 20th 1945 and on that it says 612th also.
Air Medal with 3 bz OLC
Victory Medal
1 O/.S Bar
American Theater Ribbon
EAME Ribbon with 3 Bz Battle Stars
Good Conduct Medal
He was 18 years and 6months old at date of entry.
Note: The 9 man crew switch makes sense to me because there s one missing man "Mack Fisher"in The training documentation so he must have been reassigned.
I am really just getting started in all of this. Some where there is a picture of Deenthorp Airbase's entryway arch and sighn and the tower too I just have to dig it up.
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Re: W.G. Mc Kenny Crew
by win-win on Sun Jun 13, 2010 2:10 am
Hi again:
1. Your training 'documentation' for him is very interesting, and you're off to a great start in establishing his training 'timeline' and 'sequence' (prior to joining the 401st). Good hunting. For my Family, 'letters home' helped a lot (if only for dates & return address info).
2. You've probably already seen Website listing for the McKenny Crew:
- - With 9-men (one Waist Gunner);
- - In the 613Sq, - 1st Mission Feb.22, 1945, and 25th mission, Apr.19,1945
Your Kin could have flown more missions (than the other McKenny Crewmen) simply because he got assigned to fly with other Crews as 'fill-in' a couple of times. That's common. The only way to find all his missions for-sure is from actual Mission 'Loading Lists' (during his tour). [As a 'sidelight' to 10-man / 9-man Crews, we know all 10 of my Uncle's 'Nelson Crew' arrived and were assigned the 613Sq, even though the 'Squadron History' lists only 9-men (one waist gunner was not listed). We also know the 6-Enlisted 'Nelson Crew' members were in the same barracks, and from Mission Report 'Loading Lists' we learned the 2-waist gunners 'traded-off' flying days and also flew with other Crews (to keep their missions-flown count current with those of the overall 'Nelson' Crew). That was common, also.
3. Regarding your Kin's training sequence:
- - His (Pvt) AAF Basic training was early-on,
- - His aerial gunnery training at Las Vegas ending July 29, 1944 may have been 'next';
- - Then he qualified and did the 23-month Armor-Gunner training (reaching S/Sgt.);
- - Then assignment to a Crew and off to a 'Combat Crew Training School' (about 10-weeks); then ship-out to England.
I don't know if Lincoln Neb. had a CCTS, but 'Googling' may answer what (training) it did have [and if you can read the sign in the photo, as Paul Bellamy outlined, you may be able to confirm where his CCTS was].
[It seems ETTs were really sharp guys, and have more training (in months) than other (enlisted Crewmen, even Radiomen). So by the time they are assigned to a Crew at the 'CCTS', ETTs have more time-in and 'stripes'. Don't know that for a fact, but from the ETTs I've looked-at, seems so].
Good luck on your search.
Win Bryson
PS: I don't think posting the Crew's service numbers 'helps', per-se. Just my opinion.
1. Your training 'documentation' for him is very interesting, and you're off to a great start in establishing his training 'timeline' and 'sequence' (prior to joining the 401st). Good hunting. For my Family, 'letters home' helped a lot (if only for dates & return address info).
2. You've probably already seen Website listing for the McKenny Crew:
- - With 9-men (one Waist Gunner);
- - In the 613Sq, - 1st Mission Feb.22, 1945, and 25th mission, Apr.19,1945
Your Kin could have flown more missions (than the other McKenny Crewmen) simply because he got assigned to fly with other Crews as 'fill-in' a couple of times. That's common. The only way to find all his missions for-sure is from actual Mission 'Loading Lists' (during his tour). [As a 'sidelight' to 10-man / 9-man Crews, we know all 10 of my Uncle's 'Nelson Crew' arrived and were assigned the 613Sq, even though the 'Squadron History' lists only 9-men (one waist gunner was not listed). We also know the 6-Enlisted 'Nelson Crew' members were in the same barracks, and from Mission Report 'Loading Lists' we learned the 2-waist gunners 'traded-off' flying days and also flew with other Crews (to keep their missions-flown count current with those of the overall 'Nelson' Crew). That was common, also.
3. Regarding your Kin's training sequence:
- - His (Pvt) AAF Basic training was early-on,
- - His aerial gunnery training at Las Vegas ending July 29, 1944 may have been 'next';
- - Then he qualified and did the 23-month Armor-Gunner training (reaching S/Sgt.);
- - Then assignment to a Crew and off to a 'Combat Crew Training School' (about 10-weeks); then ship-out to England.
I don't know if Lincoln Neb. had a CCTS, but 'Googling' may answer what (training) it did have [and if you can read the sign in the photo, as Paul Bellamy outlined, you may be able to confirm where his CCTS was].
[It seems ETTs were really sharp guys, and have more training (in months) than other (enlisted Crewmen, even Radiomen). So by the time they are assigned to a Crew at the 'CCTS', ETTs have more time-in and 'stripes'. Don't know that for a fact, but from the ETTs I've looked-at, seems so].
Good luck on your search.
Win Bryson
PS: I don't think posting the Crew's service numbers 'helps', per-se. Just my opinion.
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Re: W.G. Mc Kenny Crew
by win-win on Sun Jun 13, 2010 2:18 am
Hi again:
Heres a ...wait a minute...Wow, A B-17 just flew by...
Anyway, here's a quick 'Google' of 'U.S. Army Air Force, Lincoln Neb'. to look-at to get you started:
http://www.nebraskahistory.org/publish/ ... _field.htm
http://www.lincolnafb.org/
http://www.techbastard.com/afb/ne/lincoln.php
Win
Heres a ...wait a minute...Wow, A B-17 just flew by...
Anyway, here's a quick 'Google' of 'U.S. Army Air Force, Lincoln Neb'. to look-at to get you started:
http://www.nebraskahistory.org/publish/ ... _field.htm
http://www.lincolnafb.org/
http://www.techbastard.com/afb/ne/lincoln.php
Win
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Re: W.G. Mc Kenny Crew
by Sunderlin Family on Mon Jun 14, 2010 12:34 am
This is the aircraft flown by this crew in their second mission. ( 2nd day of Operation Clarion )
Serial Number: 43-38458 - Bottle Baby
They flew this one was on their 24th mission Wednesday, 18 April 1945
Serial Number: 42-31730 - Morning Sar
Serial Number: 43-38458 - Bottle Baby
They flew this one was on their 24th mission Wednesday, 18 April 1945
Serial Number: 42-31730 - Morning Sar
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Re: W.G. Mc Kenny Crew
by Sunderlin Family on Fri Jun 25, 2010 8:41 pm
I think I have Lt.McKenny identified.
I found this image on th internet.
I have a larger image of this also. Lt. McKenny is inspecting battle damage.
My guess is that he is the bottom row center of the crew photo in my first post.
I found this image on th internet.
- McKenny.jpg (17.88 KiB) Viewed 102 times
I have a larger image of this also. Lt. McKenny is inspecting battle damage.
My guess is that he is the bottom row center of the crew photo in my first post.
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Re: W.G. Mc Kenny Crew
by donaldbyers on Sat Jun 26, 2010 12:27 am
Lt. J.N. Shepard flew Bottle Baby as his aircraft during 44-45 http://401bg.org/History/crew.asp?cid=11711
Don
Don
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Re: W.G. Mc Kenny Crew
by Sunderlin Family on Sat Jun 26, 2010 10:11 pm
Yes it was that crews main aircraft. However I was referring to:
Mission Number: 213
Date: Friday, 23 February 1945
http://401bg.com/history/mission_sum.asp?mid=213
Mission Number: 213
Date: Friday, 23 February 1945
http://401bg.com/history/mission_sum.asp?mid=213
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Re: W.G. Mc Kenny Crew
by donaldbyers on Sun Jun 27, 2010 12:07 am
Yes I know I was just adding it for reference Thanks
Don
Don
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